At what point is abortion unethical?

0:00At what point does abortion become unethical? At what point does it become just wrong, just bad, just something that could be considered murder? Depending on who you ask, you're going to get different answers with different people. Some people say at the moment of conception, you have a baby. Others say, "Hey, this child is inside of my body. It's my choice." And obviously the laws change and they vary state by state and country by country. I think currently in my country the latest that you can get an abortion, I'm not even sure which state is around like 22, 23, 24 weeks. And right before I looked that up, I looked up what is the earliest that a baby was able to be taken out of of the womb. and survive, you know, like a premature birth.

0:57And it said that it was around 22 23 weeks. I'm like, wow. Okay. If if a baby is able to survive on its own, granted that, you know, when it's a premature birth like that, that's, you know, it was a record-breaking thing apparently, but it's a rare phenomenon that unfortunately does happen. And when you're looking at it from the other side of the coin, like, okay, when is this fetus considered a baby that's able to independently live on its own? Because for some reason, that's where I get drawn to. That's where I start to feel like you can you can draw the line. Like when when is the baby independent from its mom? If a mom were to be pregnant, you know, with a with a child and got shot in the head, does the child live if it's taken outside of, you know, the womb?

1:56And I know that's a it's kind of a morbid hypothetical example or situation or whatever, but I think it's it's a again kind of like a good tool to figure out where to draw the line here. You know, if um if this line changes though, then what? We have medical breakthroughs that are happening all the time. So, what if at the moment of conception actually becomes a real thing? If I'm able to draw the line right there saying that, okay, at the moment of conception seems a little bit farst stretched. saying six weeks is the cut off. That seems that seems really crazy, especially since, you know, start putting into the mix when the average person actually finds out that they're pregnant.

2:54You know, people have irregular periods. They have their own situations that you can't necessarily look at this through a black and white lens. This is one of those things that live in the gray area. And of course, those are the things that mainly get debated that are one of those um should you or should you not moral dilemma raising type of situations and trying to figure out when you are interfering with somebody's own personal rights and also trying to figure out if you are actually taking an innocent life. These are this is a very tough moral dilemma. You know, the trolley problem.

3:52You um you've got to take a lot of things into consideration. Of course, there's always the circumstance of how the person, you know, became pregnant and there there are obviously a lot of different arguments that can be raised on both sides. But just looking at it purely from the part of when is the child able to say, "Hey, regardless of what happens to mom, I'm good." you know, even if it is one of those things I have to be isolated and special things have to happen and whatever, you know, whatever the case may be to make sure that the baby survives and grows up to be healthy. If that if that mile marker actually can be moved, then what? Like I said, if at the moment of conception becomes a real thing, it will it will be hard for a lot of people to morally justify actually having an abortion.

4:57Imagine just a hypothetical situation where we have advanced so far that you know literally obviously you have to take in the fact of knowing that you're pregnant. But let's just say from the moment that you get impregnated, you know, you're able to by some miracle, by some breakthrough in medical science, you're able to actually extract this embryo and you know, some kind of test tube baby, this into a functioning, healthy baby that grows up to have its own life and you know what I mean, that has kids that have kids and continue the whole human life thing that nobody wants to get in the way of I'm assuming at that point. I mean, then it's just wrong. It's kind of like, okay, I could abort your baby or I could just extract it. And then I guess you have the whole but this is going to this is going to lay on my conscious forever.

6:00Now, it's not it's not just something that I was able to get handled, get fixed, and now it's over. It's something that has its own life. Probably knows that it was given up by it its own mother. This this is again why it's one of those damn should you or should you not type of thing. At what point? And I don't know why. Again, the the whole should you or should you not really it really relies on the personal preference, personal experience of the person that you're talking to. Um, morally right thing to somebody can be the worst thing you could ever do to somebody else.

7:01So, taking that into consideration, you have to you have to think about a whole bunch of different factors. Not just how the person got pregnant, but maybe the frequency. I don't I don't know why, but for some reason, for me, that feels. And I admit it is just a feeling. It's just like something for me where it's just like if you are consistently getting abortions though. I don't but it it it's really hypocritical. It contradicts how I feel about okay if it's only up until the point where the baby can be its own independent um you know human being without relying on the mother. Of course, it has to rely on medical science and doctors being there.

7:59Cool. Let's say we are there to make sure that that, you know, somebody's in place to make sure that that baby does become again a healthy child that grows up. So, taking that aside, if you are consistently getting abortions before that threshold is met, let's say you're coming in at 10 weeks, 11 weeks, for some reason, the frequency seems to bother me. Even if you meet that threshold, and I don't I don't fully know why. I guess I guess I look at I look at abortion as one of those things that it's not a plan. It's not plan A by any means. It it shouldn't even be plan B. You know, they got one of those. I think I think when people if if people not even saying like obviously this is hypothetical if somebody is using abortion almost in substitution as birth control that it feels it feels weird again I admit it's a feeling it's just something I can't I'm almost finding it hard to describe

9:22But it It's It feels a little bit different. It feels like now we're stepping into the irresponsible zone. happens. Like happens. I of all people know that happens. But I say I of all people as if I'm any different than you. And like we're any different than anybody else. Everybody's got their own happens. So eliminating the option altogether that seems that seems criminal too. That has me like oh my god like what at all? Who are you to say? Like who who are you? And I've I've talked about this in in another episode where it does get weird when I feel like people are telling you what to do with your own body. Whether it's something like abortion or saying that, you know what, this whole life thing, I don't want to do it anymore.

10:24Do I agree with that? No. Do I think anybody should do that? Hell no. Like their life has so much to fight for. And as somebody that's actually battled those same type of feelings and demons, I'm here to say that my feelings on it is a no. But do I feel like I have the right to tell anybody what they can do with their life? No. Not if it's not hurting somebody else, because that's really just to help the betterment of society. But I guess that's where the whole abortion argument gets tricky because if you're one of those people that truly looks at this like like this this is a child we're talking about. You're over here talking about fetus this and embryo and whatever weeks like shut like shut. Do you not hear yourself? This is a child. And I've heard I've heard the arguments on both sides because that's just this is the type of person I am.

11:29I want to hear both sides because I'm not I'm not scared of somebody's ideas even if it is the complete opposite of my own. It actually I feel like makes me better question my own ideas because that's what I I really want to understand the I believe because if I don't understand it it's it's getting weird. It's just like is this even your belief? Is this what is this? Can you call it a belief if you don't even understand it? Or is it just like I said a feeling? So frequency using it as a substitute would be crazy and I don't have a number at the top of my head like well get an abortion a month that's a little bit excessive you know how do you fix that? How who who's to say? How do you how do you actually regulate that? That's again where you're you're you're tiptoeing on that line of completely controlling people, controlling their own their own will, their own free will.

12:33And that also is a big hard pass for me as well. And that's I guess that's why like I said, this is this is so tricky. I don't I don't have a certain number, but I know it plays a it plays a role. And if I think about regulating it, it's just like, okay, what do you what do you do? Do you do you charge people money? Do you like keep up? Like, is there some sort of database that says, okay, cuz in order to regulate it, period, you're going to have to track this So, we're like tracking abortions now. You know, that's a little weird for the better good. you know, and then it's it raises one of those questions like why? Never never be scared to ask why. It's not only a harmless question.

13:32It's a question that usually results in clarity. like if you really explore it. So why why does frequency matter if you meet the threshold? Why does it matter if you continue? And I said maybe it's it's because it feels a little bit irresponsible. There are other ways that you could be dealing with this other than going straight to abortion. But it's just like okay, but if you're having an issue with this period, that means that there is some sort of underlying issue that you see period with abortions. I mean, doing it once, what's the difference between doing it one time or a thousand times? What's the difference? If it's okay the first time, it has to be okay the hundth time, right? Or was it never okay in the first place? And it's like, god dang, that's that's a hard one.

14:36I don't know. I keep going back to it's just a feeling like you're you're back. You're back. Like he can't he can't pull out. You can't you can't get a condom. You ain't got no birth control plan B. Like there's like you got to keep getting an abortion. You got to keep getting this procedure. And again, you think about regulating it. you think about putting putting some sort of penalty. Not only you tracking it, you're putting a penalty. Okay, the first five you pay this, but any anything over five, you know, s abortion 6 through 10, you paying this amount and it just keeps going up from there. By the time you you get to abortion 25, you're man, it's like I might as well just keep the baby. Like this is going to cost an arm and a leg, let alone the baby. like man.

15:37And I guess it's one of those, who am I to even say how I feel about this? I mean, I mean, it. I guess I'm just as important as anybody else. And my opinion, it's probably it's probably closer to a lot of people that are too scared to think about the nuances of it. you you look at things from either a left or a right, a red or a blue type of lens, and it just automatically puts you on a team. And I'm not I'm not on a team like uh not I guess like my family is a team. That's that's the only team I really have is like my kids and you know what I mean?

16:35And it's it's stupid to let your ideas be persuaded by the fact that you are aligned with other sets of values with people and it's not exactly what they have in their minds and automatically well you can't you can't speak up because then you're going to be one of them. You're not one of us. You're ostracized now. You're out of the group now. you're not even wanted. So, and that goes for both sides. And looking at it in the gray area instead of black and white, looking at it in the purple area instead of red and blue, looking at it in the center instead of left and right. All of these nuances that people are scared to go towards. Anytime you bring it up, well, you get automatically labeled as somebody on the other side on the other team.

17:37And that's crazy. That's wild. So yeah, I uh I guess after saying it out loud, that's uh that's why it matters to me. Not because my opinion is one of those things that needs to be broadcasted around the world or anything like that. No, honestly, it's because I need to know the truth because I knew vaguely. I know vaguely how I feel. It's just like just me speaking about this out loud right now. I don't I don't necessarily talk about this with people, you know? It's one of those things that you don't really talk about. I think putting a limit could possibly lead to tyranny.

18:40It obviously would lead to control because you have to keep track of who has an abortion when and where. And there has to be some sort of database that is mutually shared or it's kind of like when uh like when the opioid crisis first started and people were just getting prescriptions by a whole bunch of different doctors. There was never any database at that time where it's like, "Okay, this person doesn't need to keep getting more pills. They need to chill the out." Um I don't know. I I can't I can't get past that either. So, I don't I don't have an answer as far as how do you regulate that? I don't have an answer as far as how do you make it right in in a perfect world. You know what I mean? Like this this isn't something that happens all the time.

19:37And I don't I don't even know the numbers as far as how many abortions happen throughout the United States. I I guess I am of the mind that it doesn't necessarily matter. And again, somebody would have just been blown away by the fact that I just said that. Like, you're talking about a child. Like, this is a baby. You have kids. What are you talking about? Like, it doesn't matter how many abortions. Damn, it's it's tough. It's tough because we're talking about numbers. We're talking about how how far through the pregnancy, let alone like if it's a product of um rape or sexual abuse or something like that, you know what I mean? thinking about like something, God forbid, happening to a child that is is able to to get pregnant still and like putting them through that and thinking that that's something that they were going to have to carry for the rest of their life.

20:47None of this seems right. Why does none of it seem right? Why does all of it seem bad? Why is it a rock in a hard place? you jump out of the frying pan and into the fire type of thing, man. Why does it? Why does it feel wrong either way? It feels wrong because you you're murdering murdering babies if you if you believe in this ideology. just like, "Yeah, but it's like again, there's that whole free will thing that's just as much of a and the only thing that I've been able to to put my foot down hard on and draw the line pretty pretty thick and say I stand on this is the old when can the baby, fetus, embryo, whatever, when when is it able to live on its own?" Okay, let's take a quick break for a minute and thank our sponsor.

21:45Did you know that there are lakes at the bottom of the ocean so toxic and dense that it instantly kills marine life that swims into it? And that there is the reason why this episode is brought to you by Paranoid by Exo. You can find it everywhere you listen to music. All right. It's got me paranoid like no company. It's me, myself, and no one else around. Trust is hard for me. These people just be throwing it around. If you show love to me, I'm paranoid. I got to shut me. No times. I cut all my strings. Oh god, they always prove me right. I wish seen for scene. Even blow watch you breaking branches off a rotten family tree.

22:44My third eye open. Finally feel probably gets the best of me

22:53Again. Shoot the mom dead. So sorry. Tragic event, but somehow I was able to rush the body to the hospital. Can the baby survive? Does the baby survive? Because if not, it it it isn't able to independently live on its own. Not yet. And I guess you could argue, yeah, but when you have the baby, if you just left the baby unattended, it would it wouldn't be able to to live on its own either. You know, you have to feed the baby, change the baby, you have to do all these things for the baby, and the baby would die. So, what do you mean it can't independently live? Of course not. It's a baby. Okay, we're talking about two different things, though. We're talking about we're doing everything we can. Every single piece of medical science that we can use and every tool and every idea that we have and use, we're using that to try and make sure that this baby survives.

23:55But what if you can't? What if I'm sorry, there's just literally nothing that we can do? like we're going to have to make more breakthroughs for this to even be possible for us than what you know because if the baby wouldn't be able to survive on its own. And you know that's the reason why because obviously if the baby just stayed in the dead mother's body for too long eventually I'm not exactly sure but I'm I'm pretty sure that it would end up passing as well. But again, in this hypothetical, assuming that the body was able to be immediately rushed to the hospital and the baby was immediately being able to take be taken out, the person that shot the mom, is that considered a a double homicide?

25:05Again, the baby just wouldn't be able whether the mom was shot or not, if the mom just had a heart attack, if whatever. If the mom doesn't live, this baby doesn't live at this point in time, unfortunately, where we are at in medical science. In that situation, is the murder of the mom also a murder of the baby or is it just considered, you know, it's just more of a heinous act of one count of homicide where, you know, she just happened to be pregnant and there was a baby inside. I know I know this shit's dark. I know it is. But I think that's why this whole thing

25:50It kind of just it makes me feel uneasy talking about it. And again, I don't know why. I've never I've never been in the situation where somebody I was with needed one. And I guess I've always had a light feeling of my feelings on, you know, my whole abortion stance without diving deep into it. So, I guess that's why it feels a little bit off. Thinking that any point of abortion is murder is kind of a bold claim. again before like taking away the fact that you know eventually hopefully we really do get to the point where I don't care if you just got pregnant.

26:47We're able to take that thing out and raise it in a test tube and voila, here we go. Medical breakthrough. Awesome. But until we get to that point, if we're considering, let's say, you know, one thing you hear people that are u pro-choice, they say, you know, it's they're just sales, you know, pro people that are pro-life will be like, there's a heartbeat, you know, as as early as 6 weeks. What are you talking about a heartbeat? How could you do that? There's a heartbeat. But they're just cells to the other people. So again, these are actual these are actual these are actual perspectives that people have there. These people like it's it's one of those things where it's like how can you how can you think this? Like that's why this it's such a huge debate, but it's because these are two groups of people that actually believe the opposite thing.

27:48Like I actually believe these are just like clumps of cells. like what are we talking about here? And then the other group is like this is a baby. That's what we're talking about. I actually believe that this is a baby. And that's one of those things where if both sides were debating and you said, "Okay, can we at least admit a baby, a goooo gaga, we see it right here, a baby?" If anything were to violently happen to this baby where it was taken out of existence, can we all agree that that would be horrible? Yeah. Yeah, we can we can agree that. Yeah. It's a baby. It's a baby. What? That's like the the icon of innocence. That it's the it's the epitome of innocence. Of course, we would all agree. So, on that note, there should be some sort of common ground that could be seen there where if you truly believe that what somebody is doing is killing a baby.

28:57Whether or not you agree with them, if they see it as that, you can at least empathize with the fact that they're just feeling the same way you would feel if you saw a baby right here. and and you know that you know as soon as you left the room something happened. You know what I mean? Something happened to a baby, anybody be like, "Oh my god, that's horrible." Even if something happens to like a like a a a new dad or a new mom and it's like that ends up being in the news or something, it's like and they had a a six-month old baby right before they ended up getting, you know, robbed and stabbed or whatever, whatever bad thing that happened. It's like something about it, it makes it worse. And yeah, I it makes it worse, I guess, because the the person had a family, but really when I think about it, what makes it worse is the fact that that means that there's an innocent baby out there that's growing growing up without a mom or without a dad. Damn. So, it's just like, not only did somebody pass away or get killed, they just had a baby.

30:02You're not you're not saying that phrase for the person that passed away, man. They just had a baby. Oh, you're saying that phrase for the baby. Everybody except for obviously psychopaths or whatever, everybody can empathize with the innocent life of a baby, a child even. You know what I mean? So, it's like it's not just babies. Like, oh, you're not a baby no more. You're a child now, so them. Like, no. That's why it's like that's why you go to prison and you you touch kids, you up with kids, you did anything with kids, you dead. Like, no. Like, even the murderers and the the rapists are like, you did what? You did something to kids. The wrong with you? That's something that's something that's deep inside of us where we're protective. anybody. I would like to think that if somebody was walking down the street and they're just seeing like some sort of uh brutal act of violence going towards a kid or something like that, like they would step in and be like, "Hey," you know what I mean?

31:10It's like I would like to think that somebody would do that if you know you saw a woman being attacked the same way like that. That used to be very common. Like, hey buddy, what you doing? Like, is she bother is he bothering you miss or whatever the you know people would step in. Imagine how many people would step in for a kid. Even people that wouldn't step in for a woman, a helpless woman that would that would just continue to to walk down the street, you know, like you see that a lot in busy cities. Boy, let something be happening to a kid. And I think there was even a viral video that went around uh where there was it was all staged where it was it was some kid being like kicked off a bus or something like that and everybody uh they stepped in because it was it was way too aggressive. If this was a kid, it looked like a little girl and they ended up taking the hood off of the little girl and the little girl was actually um you know just like a dwarf or um a short person whatever you know I don't know what they they were they were short.

32:10They were very short the way they looked like a kid and it was like a little man uh that movie Little Man where a grown ass man that was a dwarf that was dressing up like a kid. This is exactly what this guy did. And you just see everybody be like, "Oh the fuck." And they just like walk over. But it shows you even in a busy city cuz that's where that's where this was. I don't I don't remember which city it was whether it was like New York, Chicago, whatever. People People going they going to bust into action. You with a kid. We can all agree with that. We can all at least come to to a consensus on on the fact that innocent life should be protected at all costs. This this is such a touchy subject, abortion, because it raises the question, when do you consider this a child? When do you consider this the innocent life?

33:07You know, somebody like if you're if you're a dude and you're you're beaten off or some and you flush your down the the toilet or it goes down the drain or you put it in the Kleenex and throw it away. Not to get too graphic, but these these were potential, you know, viable sperms that could have met an egg. Like it gets to the point where it's like how far do you go? Should you keep Should you never never do that? Well, some people actually believe that. It's like, yeah, actually you shouldn't you shouldn't be touching yourself. Like what what are you talking about? Okay, cool. Does that mean every single time that you have sex with a woman, you should be intending to knock her up? You should be intending to get her pregnant. Well, no. Like, I use a condom. or no. I pull out and you know there there it goes.

34:03Is that is that is that murder? Is it is it? It's like well no the the sperm didn't meet the egg. It didn't happen yet. It's at the moment of conception. Like at the moment of it's it's like again where do where do you draw the line? Where do you want to draw the line? At what point is it a baby? And at what point are they just cells? Is it just the beginning of what human life could be, but you know, a miscarriage could happen. Actually, I I wasn't even aware that I was pregnant. I was um drinking. I was taking my medication that you're really not supposed to take if you are pregnant, but again, I didn't know. I continue to take that and now I have a miscarriage or now it didn't go through or whatever. You know what I mean? like when you're at the beginning stages, can you truly call it murder? And it started making me go down another rabbit hole.

35:01Like, haven't I heard of something where you will have twins in a womb and one of them will actually like absorb the other one? And I looked it up and yes, this apparently does happen. And it can even happen where the mother absorbs the u the embryo or fetus. I'm not I'm not even sure which one is which. Um I guess you could correct me or whatever. But yeah, the uh the fact that this happens, it is rare as that, you know, when I looked it up, it said it's very rare, but yes, it does happen. The fact that this happens, so it raises the question, is this murder? Is Is absorbing your twin really just murder? Yeah, it's something that even though it's tragic and rare, it it is natural and it's just an accident. It's something that unfortunately happens.

36:00No, you you drew shitty cards. When when that child that absorbed their twin when they're born, should they carry that? You can say, "No, that it wasn't intentional. What do you What do you What do you Are you really drawing a comparison to the two?" Hold on. I get it. Abortion is a procedure that you have to voluntarily elect yourself for. I get it. I get it. But even though the whole whether it's a twin that absorbed or the mother that absorbed, even though that's not something that you selected to happen, it did happen. And if we're just looking at the whole like law side of things and the right and wrong and we're drawing parallels to other things that we look at that are similar, meaning what's the difference between murder and manslaughter?

37:01What's the difference between a premeditated murder and an accident happened and this person ended up dying? We we got in a fight and I knocked this person out. They hit the back of the head on the the concrete and well Bob's your uncle. died. Didn't mean to. He was just talking Um I could be light about this situation cuz it's not real. Okay. It's okay. It's okay. But in that situation, you do still get charged. If you accidentally run over somebody that's walking the crosswalk legally or whatever the and you're just not looking and you're looking down at your phone or something like that, that's vehicular manslaughter. Like, you're you're going to jail either way. So, you're going to get charged either way.

37:56I I get it. You didn't mean to. That's why they'll take that into consideration. You won't get as severe as a punishment. Like think about the difference again between somebody that it was a true accident. I'm sorry. Like you know what I mean? Even like drunk drivers. Yeah. You were drinking and driving. That was the part where you were reckless and this is endangering society. I get that part. But there the intent to do it. Getting the procedure so to say. The intent wasn't there. I was just up. And yeah, I went across the road and went head on into another car and killed that family. I didn't mean to. Oh, well, I don't give a You don't mean to. You're going to jail. You're going to jail. So saying that something is just an accident that happened inside the womb and you know what I mean?

38:53It's it's it's natural it happened. So it's it's natural for when somebody trips and falls in a fight and they hit the back of the head. It's natural that sometimes the dies. So you know natural. It's still like something where it's like damn it happened. And casting blame is one of those things that people really just we we like to do it. We've always liked to do it as a witch. Like you know what I mean? Like we've always just like to point the finger. Who the do we got to watch out for? Who do we got to blame? Anything that's bad, we got to find somebody to be held accountable for this, you know? But would you make that would be twin grow up with the idea that you essentially accidentally murdered your would have been sibling and it wouldn't be would have been to somebody that had the same ideology again where at the moment of conception that is when it's it's a baby like this is murder as soon as it's a baby like I don't care if it's one week or 20 weeks it it's murder regardless okay

40:16Maybe you don't tell the wouldbe twin but is that how you would feel as a parent that had that same exact type type of ideology like you truly believe that you truly believe at the moment of conception is murder would you truly believe I don't want to resent you for this I don't want to hate you for this I want to forgive you for this and I know it's not your fault but I still feel like you murdered who would have been my other child you absorbed them absorbed abort this murder right that's how you feel about this is murder and I think That would be a moment where somebody with that ideology would have to truly look in the mirror and they'd have to figure out where they draw the line personally. You know, where where exactly they find their right and wrong. The whole objective right and wrong thing, it's made it's made up. We we just have a consensus about some things.

41:15There is some common ground between a lot of people where we can kind of unify on it and say, "Yeah, murder is wrong. Yeah, you do something to kids, it's up." And if you did have that same ideology of at the moment of conception is murder. And that did actually happen to happen to your child where you would have had twins, but one twin absorbed the other. And now they've started to grow up and you just can't help but think, you know, this this would have been this would have been the the other twin. Let's say you had a boy and a girl, you know, whatever. This would have been my my baby girl. This would have been my baby boy. Whatever. This would have been this could have been. You would be constantly going through what in your mind should have been. And you know it's an accident. You know, you want to be able to forgive because it's really not your surviving baby's fault, but is it?

42:17Did you have to be that greedy? Did you have to really absorb them? Did you not have enough? Was it me? Did I basically murder my other child by proxy? Was I not eating enough? Did I not have enough nutrients to give? Why did you just absorb? They say it's just an accident, something that can happen. But I have all these questions and I can't help but build resentment. Would you would you as that parent or would you look in the mirror and say you know what that there was a heartbeat there and natural accident or rare phenomenon or not I don't look at this as one of my kids murdered the other absorbed and sucked out the essence of their life like I don't I don't believe that. And maybe maybe they would maybe they would, you know, stand firm on that idea and actually uh and actually think that, you know what, yeah, this this was murder.

43:20I can't get past it. I'll never bring it up to my existing child, but deep down, I'll never get past it. And you would hope, you would hope, right, that they wouldn't they wouldn't actually bring that up to kind of hold that over their surviving child's head, you know, like um one of those things that they have to grow up carrying for the rest of their life because at a young age, you're going to be so vulnerable to whatever ideology that your family has. We all know that. So imagine truly growing up. I'm a murderer. I murdered my twin, my own twin. If I could do that before I was even conscious. What else am I capable of?

44:15And it might not be rational. You might say, "What? What do you mean? This is a child, sweetie. You You don't have to hold that over your your own head. You don't have to carry that. This wasn't your fault. You might say that, but again, it doesn't have to be rational to you to be rational to somebody else to actually make sense to somebody else. And that's when we just start scratching our head and we look at other people that could be neighbors, they could be friends, they could be just strangers that are walking by. We look at these people like they have alien thoughts that are the complete opposite of my own. And that's because for some reason people they they grew up believing that their ideas of what is right and wrong is the is the only acceptable definition of right and wrong.

45:24And it helps because they may be in an echo chamber of people that are saying the exact things that are saying the exact type of ideologies and principles that that they're saying. So of course this is this is it has to be right. Meanwhile, imagine again one of these people that are in this echo chamber in this group. They go through one of these scenarios and it doesn't have to be a twin absorbing the other. What if what if the umbilical cord is wrapped around You know, like is it more is it more than just a loss? Do you feel like it was a murder? Do you feel like you killed your baby if the umbilical cord got wrapped around its neck on the way out? It's a whole another level of pressure that somebody of that ideology would have to hold on to.

46:25And I don't know, that's that's why I do I do find myself somewhere in the middle. I don't see myself looking at the far corners of either side and saying, "Yeah, that that seems right. That seems right." And I don't I don't have as much of a reasoning why the whole frequency of somebody getting uh abortions matters to me, but for some reason it does. And I don't know why if you abort a baby past the point, actually I do know why on this one. If you abort a baby past the point of, you know what I mean, where they'd be able to live on their own again. If you live somewhere where you can abort at 24 weeks, but there's been cases where at 22, 23 weeks, a baby has been able to survive, it's like, why? Why not? Why not? Why not? Like, you're getting a procedure either way.

47:23I get it. Like, it's going to be hard. You're going to have to hold on to this. But why? Why not? At this point, at this point, you could actually be shot and killed and live. Not saying that that's something that should happen. I don't I get some people are weird and they uh they look at they look at situations like these like that you need some sort of radical action or some like that. My my point is that if the if the baby can live without you, let the baby live. That's you know what I mean? Like if the baby can live without you, let the baby live. And I feel like feel like it's not even just a parent thing. Wouldn't Wouldn't most people do that? Like if you were in a burning building and you were able to somehow like throw a a baby out the window or something. I'm sorry. Some might get up, but you're not about to burn a day. You know what I mean?

48:20Like I'm going to burn before this little baby. Like you would hear a baby and be like Like it's a baby. And obviously if it's impossible, you might not you wouldn't just like run into fire for some random baby. you. My point is, I'd like to believe that 99% of humanity would be like, "Hold on, I got to go do that. I got to go deal with that." So, yeah. Uh using abortion as a substitute for for birth control is is just as crazy of an idea to me. but without having any way to enforce it, without having any way to regulate it, without having some sort of control and actually keeping track of the abortions that people are having, it it starts to feel it starts to feel like there's no way out, you know, and I think on I don't care.

49:27I ju I just I don't I don't care if somebody is abused, if they get raped and they happen to get pregnant. I don't care how old they are. It doesn't just, you know, people say as as like the most extreme situation um scenario, you know, imagine um a child being abused by somebody even like like it it be happening by their own like be incest by their own family abusing and and knocking up these these little kids. I don't even want to use a word. like getting impregnating these little kids like this. Like even that felt, you know what I'm saying? But god damn, this is just it's so dark. It's just so dark. The idea of making anybody that goes through that scenario, whether they are a child or not, and say, "Yep, now have have the baby as well." Because it does come with a whole bunch of things.

50:22This and I just like, oh yeah, it's 9 months. Like, can just have the baby, you know? I mean, I do have kids. I was there for every single appointment for both of their moms. Like, it's a lot. It's a lot of appointments. You got to have you got to have health insurance or things, you know what I mean? Things start to add up. And I I don't know. Even taking all that aside, again, it's just a lot to do to somebody that was already a victim, I just I couldn't I couldn't see it. I couldn't see a world where I would have the heart to just be like, "Yeah, sorry." Like, I have a daughter. And I've heard I've heard people that are, you know, very extremely pro-life that would say if something like that were to happen to my child, my daughter, I would make I would make her have the the baby.

51:24And having a daughter myself, it not not only would that not be something she would have to worry about, I would be so worried about all of the trauma that had already happened to her. There's no way I'm subjugating what I don't care what age she is. You know, like my baby girl that's, you know what I mean? There's no way that I would subjugate her to that. And that's one of those like the way that people have the the true ideology of again at the moment of conception this murder is like I don't you know what I'm talking about the pro-life stance on things. The same way that they have that oh my god reaction like that's murder. That's That's Oh my god. You're making you would make your your your child to what?

52:23They're making their daughter to what? I don't care if you put the the the baby up for adoption. Like that that is so much more scarring that you are inflicting on that that child. That's

52:49I don't even like talking about like this. Like, it's one of those where you know it exists. You know it's out there. But god damn, bro. It's it's it's this type of feeling. I don't know. That's probably why uh I wasn't able to finish the the the Jeffrey Dmer limited series on Netflix. And I even like the the actor. He's from like American Horror Story or whatever. Evan Peters got like halfway through like I was trying like it was so hard like little bits and pieces. It's just one of those these are one of those conversations for me because I guess that's when it feels like it gets closer to home. And that's why I guess there's no way I could be fully anti, you know what I mean?

53:58Because I what? To think that that is a world that we live in that we're making, that's like torture. That's something that you would never do. That is monstrous. that's saying, "You know what? Everything that happened to you, let's make it worse. Let's make it worse. Let's make you go through this. your innocence. I know it was already taken from you. We're going to take even more. We're going to do even more damage." That's That's something. Yeah, that's a world I wouldn't want to live in. But eventually hopefully again maybe there's going to be some sort of medical breakthrough where there's some innovative process where you can extract the embryo no matter how far along and raise it without the mother.

54:57Raise it without there being some sort of traumatic incident or traumatic pregnancy or without honestly like even if you give a baby up for adoption. I couldn't imagine like having that that moment actually happened where you push out the baby and what you you just never see the baby or if you do see it just like go ahead and take he or she out. You know what I Like you've seen I've seen it in in uh like shows and movies where that's that's a hard part. They don't want to see the baby and if they do it makes it even harder. It's hard to give away the baby once you once you see the baby. But if there's some sort of procedure where again you're you're 4 weeks in. So something god forbid just happened or actually you know what I mean? Let's just let's take all of that dark out of it. Let's just say it is just a a natural procedure. Um, you know, unfortunately we took precautions, but here we are.

55:55The situation is the situation, and I'm going to have to get it handled. instead of getting the abortion, if you have some way to just boop, extract the the fetus or the embryo and raise it without the mom. I I don't see how you could morally do anything else if that was an option where again it doesn't it doesn't put the person through any extreme circumstance. you know, it's like, yeah, you can do it, but it's it's some sort of risky, complicated procedure that could actually end up affecting your life. Okay? You know, now we're we're talking. But hypothetically speaking, this procedure would be amazing. Very, very little side effects to even speak of. Um, essentially none. And it's a harmless way to get the embryo out without uh hurting the mom.

56:52You don't even have to see the baby because there isn't a baby actually formed yet. That's something that's going to happen later. So that traumatic process of going the 9 months, seeing the ultrasounds or actually seeing the baby and having to give away the baby or in any of the different various situations that people find themselves in, you'd be able to avoid that in a lowrisk way. I think that very hypothetical procedure that is able to extract this this embryo without any harm to the mom would be the ultimate moral decision. You know, for me at least that would be what I would say is the thing that you ought to do. Why get an abortion when you can just get the the fetus extracted? And I, you know, haven't thought about as far as like, well, then who raises the child?

57:50How do, you know, does that mean taxpayers are paying for um the the care of this child? And now this going to some sort of government facility or some sort of orphanage, you know, what what type of quality of life is that? Yeah. Okay. Again, thinking thinking the fact of like bringing it back to where I drew the line of when is the baby able to live on its own. If we can continue to push that line further and further, as long as there's no crazy risky adverse effects that happen to the mom, there's there's no reason why somebody shouldn't take that. So, if we want to solve the whole abortion argument, the whole uh pro-life pro-choice debate, I think that that needs to be the ultimate priority is finding a way to extract the embryo or fetus and have a way where it's able to live without the mom at an earlier rate.

58:58If we're at 22 weeks now, how how how early can we make it? How invasive can we make the procedure? How can we make it where everybody feels like the right thing has been done?